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  1. #1
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    Default Valve spring locators for TFS heads

    I need to do a valve spring change on my heads.
    The retainers I've got will fit the new springs I plan to use but they have a smaller o/d so the locator cups I have won't fit.
    It seems both the spring pocket and guide sizes aren't all that common.
    I can't find a cup to fit the the spring pocket and the o/d of the spring or a disc to fit the guide and the i/d of the spring.
    I've found a few other brands of springs with the same specs but so far none that will fit the cups or discs I've found.
    I contacted Trick Flow and what a complete waste of time that was.
    After explaining everything multiple times, it turns out they also have a spring of the same spec. but no locators to fit it.
    Does anyone know if a decent head place would be able to custom make locators for me so I don't have to modify the spring pockets or guides or would I be better off just taking the heads there and letting them sort it out ???

  2. #2
    Sure why not? 76lxhatch's Avatar
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    Its probably best to just remove the heads and machine them for standard parts using inside locators/spring seats. Its a pretty quick and easy operation with a cutter that locates in the valve guide.

    This is a Holden but you get the idea
    [IMG]http://img.v8comp.co.nz/Torana/20190715_144230.jpg[/IMG]

  3. #3
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    Thanks Hatch,
    Can't get your link to work.
    That might end up being what has to happen but I was trying to avoid removing the heads and having them machined just for a valve spring change.

  4. #4
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    Comp Cams makes a large range of locators, both the internal & external [ cup ] type.

  5. #5
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    That's one of the things I found strange, Geoff.
    I contacted comp but they couldn't find a locator for me even though they are actually their springs.
    The 2 locators they recommend for the springs both have too large an I/D to fit my guides.
    Is it OK to have a small amount (.010"-.015") of clearance between the guide and the locator or does it have to be a snug fit as comp suggest ???
    They don't make a cup to fit my spring pockets either.

  6. #6
    Do you ever leave? EH179's Avatar
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    If Comp Cams cannot supply what you need, you're in trouble.
    Sounds like some custom machining coming up.

    Good luck.

  7. #7
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    Sneem,

    I know what you mean about the sloppy fit, but I do not think it is a problem. Crane, Isky & Crower have a couple of 0.505" ID locators, but I think they are for beehive springs. Might be able to machine down the collar. Vast majority are 0.530" ID size.

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    Sneem,

    I just remembered something. I have some Chrysler TF heads here. The top of the guide is 0.500" to take the 500 seal. But there is a step where the locator sits, 0.5XX" that takes a 0.530" locator. If the locator is in place, it is hard to see the step. Have you removed the locator & measured the guide in that area?

  9. #9
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    Attachment 27210

    As you can hopefully see from the photo the guide is a constant .505".

    I said I thought it was weird that comp couldn't supply a locator to suit their springs but with Trickflow it's the same deal.
    The email they sent me included a part No. for a spring of similar spec, to what i wanted but it is a single spring with a smaller O/D.
    I originally dismissed it because I would have to change retainers as well as source locators.
    After not finding an easy solution I went back to the e-mail and it turns out they don't have a locator to suit that spring anyway ???
    To top it off it lists the part No. for the only locator they have to suit a .505" guide and when I checked the specs. it shows the inside diameter of the locator as .505" and the inside diameter of the inner spring as .505" as well.
    If this isn't a misprint ..... surely this means it doesn't actually have a collar .... which basically makes it a shim, doesn't it ???
    Anyway, the reason I mentioned it is, I'd previously been looking for dual springs because that's what the comps are and it prompted me to look at other single springs that might suit my needs and hey presto, I've found a single spring from Howards that is practically the identical spec. to the comps and will fit the cups and retainers I have.

  10. #10
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    Sneem,
    If the ID of the spring was 0.505", you wouldn't be able to use valve stem seals???

    The reason I know the dimensions is that I am going to use beehive springs with these TF heads, which require different locators. Old springs, locators & retainers are for sale, never used. PM if interested.

  11. #11
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    Geoff.

    I can only assume it's a misprint and I've tried to ask Trickflow but I don't know if you've dealt with their "customer support" but it's non existent, they don't reply to emails and when I've spoken to them I get someone who sounds like he's still in Highschool and can only supply the info. he can see on the screen he's looking at.
    I rang a couple of US Trickflow distributors and both had the specs as they're listed but neither had them in stock so couldn't physically check.

    Thanks for the offer on the bits but I've gone ahead and ordered the Howard singles while they're still in stock.
    Are you having issues with availability lately ???

    I thought about beehives too but my build doesn't warrant the investment with a hyd. flat.
    Can I get your opinion about the cam break in with these springs ???
    They are 110 closed and 300 open and now I'm not using duals obviously I can't remove the inners.
    Without buying other springs or rockers, the only option to lighten the pressure during break in would be to temporarily remove the 0.060" cups which would drop it by just over 20lbs.
    Would you worry about doing anything other than being thorough with the break in at those pressures ???
    The guy I bought the cam from is a comp. distributor who builds heads and he said it's not necessary with 300lbs or less.
    I thought ideally it should be less than 100 closed and 250 open ???
    Last edited by Sneem26; 25-05-2021 at 08:50 PM.

  12. #12
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    Sneem,

    I only guarantee a FT cam engine I build these days IF the owner finds some factory lifters, or, lifters that are at least 25 yrs old. That is the only way to know for sure that they are good quality, & not Chinese or Mexican. I send them to Clive Cams in Melb for refacing. He does a superb job & they are then as good as new.

    I also grind a groove [ have done it for yrs ] from the oil band to within 1/8" of the lifter base, using a Dremel cut off wheel about 0.025-0.030" thick. Not critical, about 0.015" deep. It does the same as the hole in the lifter base [ which you pay more for ] & I believe there are lifters available that also have the groove described. Comp Cams make a tool to groove the lifter bores, but the engine needs to cleaned out afterwards. Does the extra oiling help? I don't know, but it cannot do any harm.

    I think you will be ok with your springs @ 300 lb, as long as the lifters are good. When I started building engines in the 1970s, I do not recall recommendations to remove inner springs. it seems to have come about in more recent times, with the crap lifter quality. Use a good break in oil, such as Penrite Running in 10w/40 oil.

    I emailed TF back around Feb, no reply. Then out of the blue I got a reply about 6 weeks later. Yep, lots of things on back order. I have a contact at Comp Cams, & I asked him why so many things were on BO. His response: Comp had their best year ever in 2020. But this imbecile Biden keeps handing out free money to workers....who now do not want to work. Factories/businesses cannot get workers & are closing down, slowing down or being bought out. Wiseco pistons was recently sold off.

  13. #13
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    Thanks again Geoff,

    I had Crower camsaver lifters recommended to me which have a small flat ground down the side of the lifter but I was then told that as the lifter rotates this small area isn't in line with the lobe long enough to be effective and that if I wanted some sort of insurance, lifter bore grooving is still the preferred method as the oil is permanently directed at the lobe.
    I've heard about the comp tool but it's not really something I consider a DIY task.

    I've heard the horror stories about the F/T cams but not really being due to the lifters, more the cam cores.
    I built a 393 Clevo for a mate several years ago.
    He was hoping for 500hp on a tight budget so he didn't want to fork out for a roller so I put in the biggest comp F/T they make and bought some Trickflow 195's which were then about a third of the price of CHI or AFD heads back when the $A was nearly 1:1 with the $US.
    The valve springs to suit the cam were around 350 open and I used the comp lifters exactly the way they came out of the box and they are still in there today and the engine pulls like a train and hasn't missed a beat in more than 5 years.
    I knew he'd be driving it like he'd stolen it, so I wasn't really expecting the cam and lifters to survive this long but there you go.
    One thing I did find that I'd read however, they are bloody noisy. I've lost count of how many times early on I checked the rockers hadn't come loose.
    The comp. distributor reckons it's a combination of the aggressive lobe on the Extreme energy cams and the Clevo's 1.73 rocker ratio.
    This should make life even harder on the cam, so I'm not as concerned about using comp F/T stuff in the Chev as I once was.
    Of course, I may have just got lucky which obviously you can't afford to rely on when you're doing it for a living.

    On the dyno it ended up making more than 530hp @ 6300rpm and the dyno operator told him he couldn't believe that an air gap manifold and 195 Trickflows that cheap could make that much HP.
    It's always had a strict diet of Brad Penn oil so I'm a fan of that stuff too.
    Last edited by Sneem26; 27-05-2021 at 09:48 PM.

  14. #14
    Do you ever leave? EH179's Avatar
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    Have you looked at cool face EDM lifters?

  15. #15
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    I thought EDM lifters were only for solid flat tappets, EH ???
    Sorry if I wasn't clear but I'm using a hydraulic.

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