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  1. #1
    been here .......too long Smitty2's Avatar
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    Default Magic radiator coolant?

    the mind is still disbelieving........
    but at PI yesterday I saw a guy in a VH racecar
    running that has an electric water pump that only
    comes on when the temp reaches 200C..Centigrade
    NOT Fahrenheit along with a cooling fan thats set
    the same...it comes on with the pump

    becoz he is running this stuff......
    http://www.evanscooling.com/html/msports1.htm

    its a waterless glycol based coolant
    and well..you can read the blurb

    anyone heard of it? (I hadn't before yesterday)
    any comments?


    cheers

    Smitty

  2. #2
    Sure why not? 76lxhatch's Avatar
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    Water boils at 100 deg (slightly different under pressure) but other fluids have different boiling points so that part is easy enough to believe. The page you linked to says 370 deg F boiling point which is only 187-odd deg C though, so 200 deg C seems a little high. The 'no pressure' idea sounds interesting but I fail to see how it is going to conduct enough heat from the engine running it at such a high temp, surely it needs to be closer to ideal temp to conduct enough heat away from the metal? Bet its expensive anyway!

  3. #3
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    If the running temp is 200+ celsius, Whats the oil temp? Youd want to have a decent oil cooler on board.

  4. #4
    Do you ever leave? WB5LTR's Avatar
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    Interesting smitty.

    LX makes a good point, about the cooling at high temps but if you read there artical it makes a statement that is correct to some extent.

    When vapor blankets the surface, water-based coolants lose their ability to absorb heat from the hot spots in the combustion chambers, leading to high metal temperature spikes well above critical levels. The result is loss of power from detonation or component structural failure from pre-ignition in the form of piston damage, head gasket failure, and/or warped or cracked heads.

    The vapour blacket created from boiling water cannot conduct the heat from convection so you only have radiation taking affect which isn;t enough to cool the motor and all the shit hits the fan.

    The differance with the evans shit is that it doesn;t boil so you dont get vapour so you can still get good heat transfer from the block and heads. But at what temperature will a given engine reach its peak efficency and then start going backwards, what is the ideal operating temp for an engine

    The idea of the pump coming on at 200 deg c seems weird considering Propylene Glycol has a boiling point of 188.2 deg c, which will be a little higher under pressure.

    anyway very interesting, but yes i bet its bloody expensive.

  5. #5
    been here .......too long Smitty2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenhj View Post
    If the running temp is 200+ celsius, Whats the oil temp? Youd want to have a decent oil cooler on board.

    good point..the VH racer does have a large oil cooler out front
    of the alloy race radiator

    but I still think the whole concept is strange
    coz I have always been told that the internal combustion
    engine is most efficient within a certain temp range
    and seems to allow it to run at a far higher temp

  6. #6
    Do you ever leave? PRO-GMH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenhj View Post
    If the running temp is 200+ celsius, Whats the oil temp? Youd want to have a decent oil cooler on board.
    My water temp is 180-210... usually 180 though. Ive had it to 212 degrees... which is boiling point!

  7. #7
    Do you ever leave? WB5LTR's Avatar
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    thats Fahrenheit figures you quoting thou PRO....?

  8. #8
    been here .......too long Smitty2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WB5LTR View Post
    The idea of the pump coming on at 200 deg c seems weird considering Propylene Glycol has a boiling point of 188.2 deg c, which will be a little higher under pressure.

    .....very interesting, but yes i bet its bloody expensive.

    the guy was running a what appeared to be normal radiator cap
    at guess....13psi..15psi? which would move the boiling point up
    to maybe 200. Still I don't like the thought of running an engine
    and cooling system at up to 200C (and no he was not running
    a heater or had heater hoses on it)

    expensive? dunno there was no price tag on the outside of the coolant container..

    I know a fellow racer who knows him so might find out

  9. #9
    been here .......too long Smitty2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PRO-GMH View Post
    My water temp is 180-210... usually 180 though. Ive had it to 212 degrees... which is boiling point!
    this stuff boils at 370F
    takes a bit getting your head around it

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    Ping city I reckon, unless your running no timing. Wonder if he's running "legal" fuel.

  11. #11
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    I guess the real question is, Did he win? And how often does he need a freshen up?

  12. #12
    Do you ever leave? PRO-GMH's Avatar
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    Oh youre all talking celcius! Jeebus.

  13. #13
    been here .......too long Smitty2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenhj View Post
    Ping city I reckon, unless your running no timing. Wonder if he's running "legal" fuel.
    dunno
    thats a good point
    and something the spiel on the site sez nothing about


    fuels?..at the sorta level we are racing at (CAMS club level)
    just about anything goes (cept methanol and nitro )



    Smitty

  14. #14
    Part of the furniture BossHoggett's Avatar
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    Heat transfer can only happen when the the combustion chamber temps are greater than the cooling medium this is the law of Thermodynamics. in the same way as Electricity flows to earth. the larger the resistance the less the transfer. Hence why the operating temperature is a maths equation. or the balance of heat the ability of the engine to create heat and the mean average of the radiator to expel it.
    As a financial value ? engine creates $100 and the radiator removes 50c........so the average of the 2 is now the Operating temp. or 75c

    This is also the Maths in which efficiency of intercoolers work by...... Pressure therefore represents nothing in the maths, as then only a variable, as Heat and pressure makes this variable value,

    So lets suggest fuel burns at 500 degrees celcius. and the air temp is 30% celcius. if the efficiency of the radiator was 100% then the coolant returning into the engine then is 30deg, as it has expelled 470 deg. We all know that is detrimental to the engine so we have thermostats that control this to 80 degrees. so the efficiency now is 80'/500' = 74% heat transfer. Ideally this isnt great too So if we raise it to 370.../500' = 26% heat transfer.

    This is where performance comes in.... The hotter the cylinder temp the faster the burn. This is good. it makes for lower ignition timing and cleaner burning engines that means efficiency and power. yes if you have dags in the combustion chamber they can glow red hot and pre ignite the fuel..... BAD BAD BAD. But providing you basically polish your chambers you can run almost to the thin red line. ( F1 have ceramic coated pistons and chambers in the event to minimise heat leaching out of the combustion chambers for 20 years. and also ignites the cast heads are better than ally heads debate again.)

    Other benefits to this also are in the engine block and component expansion rates.
    to attain the correct piston to bore clearance a machinist needs to know the piston type and block material and experience, to get the correct spacing at operating temps. same with rings and so on.
    Now if you can stabilize the engine thermals to be all correct you can bore the bores all the same, clearance everything the same and make the most of the grunt...(including obvious manifolding efficiencies and Fuel A/Rs) or maximizing your mechanical advantage.

    In example 1 of 100% radiator efficiency the right bank would be 500degrees. and the left water in would be 30 degrees. now unless your brilliant and have absolute shit loads of cash to individually clearance every bore. you will have an Engine that bores 1,3,5,7 are loose and have blow by. and 8,6,4,2 that are too tight, cause too much friction and heat.... with 2 being a shocker as it sees 500 degrees. ( ok ok ok its a gross over simplification but its illustrative.)

    So increasing the temps to a point of 1 Degree before detonation or this argument to 499 degrees the engine thermals are pretty much consistent, and can maximize the power.

    this has been the principal again of F1 for years too, and now Nascar and others with a process of "hot honing" engine blocks with oil at 200Deg F passing through the water Jackets. in an attempt to simulate the clearances in a running engine. and when the engine has stabilized after 20 mins of passing fluid through the engine, they bore and hone the blocks.

    The real question on our lips then..... is it for us..... For winners yes. and winners have money. F1 has the money and thats why they can produce 1500 hp from a turbo'd whipper snipper engines...... and utilize all the little tricks.

    Winning isn't about, winning by a hundredth of a second. its making sure the other bloke doesn't know 101 being all things equal.

    would we do this ?? at what cost.... how bad do you want to win.

  15. #15
    Part of the furniture BossHoggett's Avatar
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    Oh can i mention again about Dont Run FORGED PISTONS IN STREET ENGINES. due too their composite and density for strength they need extra clearance's in an engine. and due to above youll loose power, and flog your bores out causing excessive wear......Nitro engines, BIG Rpm, and Highly charged Forced inducted only. If you dont need them dont waste your cash.

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