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  1. #1
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    Default Building a Circuit 308

    Hi all, After deciding that i would like to go down the path of using the VK for hobby/ fun track car instead of just a weekender/ cruiser i need a bit of guidence for the donk. Now my original engine plans have changed but so far this is what i have in mind for a circuit motor:

    Black 308
    VN heads pocket ported
    Pacemaker Extractors
    Rebuilt/ modified quady
    YT Bolt on Adjustable rockers
    Hyper Flat tops (aiming for around 10.5:1 comp, i realise i may need to get some machining on the block done)
    High Energy Baffled Sump

    Now as for cam and manifold original plans was a Crane F280 and a TP DP High rise but i realise these will be to aggresive for a track car. I have been thinking of either using a Crane Hydraulic 304 cam or a Camtech CT248 545 (a) cam obviously with lifters, rods and double valve springs to suit.

    As for a manifold thinking along the lines of a Redline Hi-Winder?

    Will have a T5 manual behind this combo.

    Am i heading down the right path with this manifold and cam combo or is there something better people can recommend? I do realise that i will have alot of other things to sort out in a track car other than a motor but hoping that this will be good enough to keep me happy for a while.


    Cheers!

  2. #2
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    Christ no, that's all wrong for a circuit engine!

    Use early heads, you want stomp out the corners which you won't get with VN's, by the time you wind it up the guy with the early heads will be 2 car lengths in front & you ain't gonna catch him.
    Hyd cams have no place in a race engine, you want a solid flat tappet.
    Intake choice will be partially dictated by driving style, but having said that if you're sticking with STD stroke then you can pretty much rule out the TP manifolds - they are aimed at 355+ cubes.
    So if you like rpm & aren't afraid to rev it up a bit then a stripmaster is the go, if you can't prep the oiling system (or afford to pay someone to do it) then that'll limit the rpm you can turn reliably & you should be looking at a performer intake with an open spacer.

    The carb of choice would be a 750HP holley or Q series quickfuel - rocky can work, but if your corner speed starts to get up there fuel surge in the tiny float bowl can be a problem, a high speed leanout due to fuel surge can make a mess of the engine real quick, holley style carb is just safer & simpler.

    Think about E85 fuel - more torque, more power, cooler running, no downsides.

    I can do you a top end kit if you want - heads, cam & intake, just shoot me a PM & I'll give you my number for a chat. Circuit holdens are what I do best.

    Edit - on the oiling system, if you stick with std stroke you don't need priority mains oiling, but you do need a good sump (ASR circuit race pan), good pickup, modifed oil pump, modified oil galleries, edge oriface lifters, modified drainbacks & the engine needs to be set up to run a relatively thin oil that drains back fast.
    Last edited by TK383; 07-03-2012 at 10:27 AM.

  3. #3
    been here .......too long Smitty2's Avatar
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    TK has laid it down correctly as I see it (and I say that as someone flogging a 308 out on circuits chasing guys with 355s and Ls1s in early Commodores)

    the hint on oiling is good (and dont expect to run a 20w/50 engine oil like you might on the street with a 308)

    I use a Quaddie ...as I find it 'nicer' out of corners, more progressive if you like but no slower than guys with Holleys or injection on similar engines.
    (plus I understand them , can mod and jet them so personal preference is the Rochester product). Fuel surge is not a problem as long as you
    have a pump setup ( I use 2 electrics) that will supply fuel at constant 5-7psi and keep it full

    I also use a hydraulic cam ...personal preference again (as my own engine builder). The guys I mix it with use both in their circuit engines (both
    std stroke and 331 or 355 strokers)

    and finally dont forget a bloke with better brakes or handling than you will turn better lap times...even if you have a stronger engine (this aint drag racing)
    spend $ on them too
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  4. #4
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    couple of questions.... what oil do you use in circuit engines Smitty and TK ?
    you guys ever used Torco oil http://www.torcousa.com/1-pix-tal/pr...TR-1-20w50.jpg
    Also, when you run a fresh motor on the engine dyno, do you guys use the good oil even on first start / run in, or do you use a basic oil to run in, dump it then run the good stuff?
    Last edited by sstank; 07-03-2012 at 01:48 PM.

  5. #5
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    ULX110 is my pick for circuit stuff, ran the torco in speedway for a bit, but it's not as good as the ULX.
    Penrite HPR30 with a bottle of crane lube for startup, dumped after bed in & switched to good oil before power runs.

  6. #6
    been here .......too long Smitty2's Avatar
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    I am with TK383 with the Penrite HPR30 in the sump for startup with all the innards having a bottle or 2 of Crane lube poured all over them before start

    have looked at the ULX (on TKs recommendation) but currently Penrite HPR10...10w/50 is my choice

    will go back to looking at the ULX as I have just found out (yesterday actually) that Penrite are now making/have made ALL their oils...fully syn
    Even the gear oils (diff/gearbox) are now fully synthetic! The one exception is their Running-in oil...full mineral base with lots of zinc.
    Even their Diesel and oils for LPG vehicles are going to be semi-synthetic....with Penrite moving away from a full mineral base in any oil they make.

    The change was based on what their marketing people wanted.... people buying oils wanted ONLY fully synthetic (actually to combat what other producers are marketing I reckon)

    But talking to their tech people, they told me that the semi-synthetic LPG 10w/50 may be the go... as the levels of zinc and other anti-wear additives are GOING UP!
    still..knowing that I will look at the ULX

    As you can guess...
    I am NOT a fan of fully synthetic oils in race engines
    Last edited by Smitty2; 07-03-2012 at 02:44 PM.
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  7. #7
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    Default

    Cheers guys

  8. #8
    been here .......too long Smitty2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sstank View Post
    couple of questions.... what oil do you use in circuit engines Smitty and TK ?
    you guys ever used Torco oil http://www.torcousa.com/1-pix-tal/pr...TR-1-20w50.jpg ............
    20w/50 is too thick for a race engine imho....
    they do a 10w/40 or 10w/50?
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  9. #9
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    Thanks for the replies, Im still learning and its good to hear some feedback!

    TK383- Im not looking at getting to serious into the track racing scene (just yet) just something for a bit of fun and start learning, only at club level, but thanks for the offer on the kit. I know my race skills will be no where up to scratch so im going to use this car as a learning curve rather than starting with a full blown track car with all the goods but then later on once i gain more experience build another motor or a whole new car if i decide to take it to the next level. I only currently have VN heads as i got rid of the early heads i had as i had no use for them, will the VN heads still work alright? The manifold WAS going to be a TP but that was when i had plans for a cruiser/ drag racer. Might sound like a stupid question but the performer manifold you mention is that an edelbrock brand, redline or ?? Probably wont be able to afford the priority mains oiling so ill look into the other path, i already have a high volume sump so ill look at getting it modified to suit, also read your thread on modifying the stock oil pump will have a go at doing that, i have a few oil pumps i can play with.

    Smitty- I do realise that i will need better brakes and suspension but i want to get the motor done first so i can get the car moving (currently and empty engine bay). Am currenly looking at and researching better brakes and suspension that i can use once i can afford them but this will come after the motor is done. Not saying im gonna race it straight away once the motor is complete just want to get the engine side of the build sorted first.

    Im not trying to dissagree with anyone here as your advice i know is correct i just want to get an idea on how i can use the current parts i have and build a motor suited to track racing, doesnt have to be the best just something to start with and keep me happy. As i mentioned before i will only be a beginner in the track racing scene so i will not be able to get the most out of a full blown race car as i cant drive the thing, i have been in hobbies before where you see new blokes come in with all the best gear money can buy and they dont do any good because they cant drive which in the end comes down to practise/ experience.

    Thanks
    Last edited by Gunn VK; 07-03-2012 at 03:13 PM.

  10. #10
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    Yeah they do a 10w/40 its the thinnest they have in the TR range, thanks for your advice guys.

  11. #11
    Part of the furniture JoeVK's Avatar
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    I have been using HPR 15 mineral on my track days with a extra 1/2 litre in the sump.

    There is only two outlets for ULX110 in NSW

    On handling what strut top and caster rods are you using in your VK, Smitty?

    Good Info TK and Smitty

  12. #12
    been here .......too long Smitty2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gunn VK View Post
    Thanks for the replies, Im still learning and its good to hear some feedback!
    ........................

    Im not trying to dissagree with anyone here as your advice i know is correct i just want to get an idea on how i can use the current parts i have and build a motor suited to track racing, doesnt have to be the best just something to start with and keep me happy. As i mentioned before i will only be a beginner in the track racing scene so i will not be able to get the most out of a full blown race car as i cant drive the thing, i have been in hobbies before where you see new blokes come in with all the best gear money can buy and they dont do any good because they cant drive which in the end comes down to practise/ experience.

    Thanks
    yes..you can go the BULK money routine but...

    When I started (again) I bought the chaser as it was ...rebuilt everything (the engine got a re-ring, bearings and gaskets) and went out
    got some decent brakes, a used set of r-specs (ex Commodore Cup) added the minimum safety gear (HELMET! extinguisher bonnet pins)...and out I went!
    Yes I had joined a car club (Holden Sporting Car club) and went to as many of theirs and other race meets/sprints/hillclimbs
    Inc the purchase of the car it cost me around $5large to get out there. ANd yes there are those that have spent TWICE that just on an engine.

    Since then I have stripped the car, added a roll cage, race seat and harness, adjustable suspension, have a set of wets and spare race tyres and
    built 3 more engines ( I lost the original eventually to corrosion about 2 years of fun on the track) and have made it more a 'touring race car' than
    a modded street car like when I first started.... and recently got it log booked with CAMS - a Category 3J vehicle (Improved Production car category)

    just remember there will always be someone quicker (I can you tell its fun chasing GT3 Porsches... but geez they are quick) but get started and aim
    to have fun out on the track

    ps...read my motto in my sig
    Last edited by Smitty2; 07-03-2012 at 04:59 PM.
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  13. #13
    been here .......too long Smitty2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeVK View Post
    I have been using HPR 15 mineral on my track days with a extra 1/2 litre in the sump.

    There is only two outlets for ULX110 in NSW

    On handling what strut top and caster rods are you using in your VK, Smitty?

    Good Info TK and Smitty

    using a Nolathane adjustable top mount (am about to go to a Kmac or Speedway alloy type mount)
    plus
    a Noltec (Comm Cup type) castor bar/radius rod



    I have finally...just got around to adding an adjustable setup to the rear.
    Adjustable Konis plus an adjustable coilover type spring setup...




    ps...the chain? its holding up the exhaust. I dont trust rubber rings on a race car
    (especially if you get wayward and run the thing up and over ripple strips !)
    Last edited by Smitty2; 07-03-2012 at 04:57 PM.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smitty2 View Post
    yes..you can go the BULK money routine but...

    just remember there will always be someone quicker (I can you tell its fun chasing GT3 Porsches... but geez they are quick) but get started and aim
    to have fun out on the track

    ps...read my motto in my sig
    Smitty yes I don't want to go down that route, the car itself has cost me nothing as it was my old daily, and all the engine bits I have mentioned above I already have so instead of spending more money and going down a different motor route I just want ideas/ recommendations on a cam and manifold to suit what I have so as you said I can "get started and aim to have fun out on the track" I don't want it to be the fastest car just something that will get me going.

  15. #15
    Do you ever leave? ynot8's Avatar
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    just following on with what TK said about the oiling system.
    If I knew what I know now about the Holden V8's oiling problems, I would have done something about it when I was building my engine.
    Make sure you clean up those oil galleries and oil return holes. And you can buy special paint to pain the valley to assist in the oil return. Also as TK said, a larger capacity, baffled sump.

    Can't remember if TK or Smitty mentioned it, but a oil catch can is an essential item too. My engine used to cop a gutful of oil on startup after a session on the track. Smoke screen out the back on startup! First time I thought I'd done the engine. But once I cleared it, it was fine. So I fit up a oil catch can (make sure it's a proper one, I had to modify mine) and smoke issue is gone. The catch can picks up around 100mls of oil after each session. So yeah worthwhile! I need to modify my oil pump as well.. The oiling system is very important, even for those of us who only take their car out on the track a few times a year. Believe me, you will put the hammer down and pull some decent rpm once you get your confidence up. Need to make sure the oiling system is up to the task or you will soon destroy an engine.
    Last edited by ynot8; 07-03-2012 at 06:22 PM.
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